Talk:Flanders (county)

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Use of French names[edit]

It's ridiculous how an article referencing Flanders lists French names first and uses the French name as a link. Seems wrong in the context of the article.

Why? That's what we call it in English. The historical County of Flanders was also a French-speaking area, regardless of where it is now. Adam Bishop 01:55, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I rather doubt that the historical County of Flanders could really be considered as French speaking. It certainly was part of the kingdom France, and a large part of the nobility spoke French. But ... within this reasoning England would also have been a French-speaking country ... ;-) Donar Reiskoffer 07:03, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Yes, yes it was...and thus we have modern English which is very different from Old English... Adam Bishop 12:22, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Countship[edit]

What do you think of the historical countship of Flanders, as insisted upon by User:Fastifex? Where does such an expression come from?--Wetman 11:08, 12 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Yeah, Fastifex, why such a bold move without any explanation? Any reason to believe that countship is preferred under Wikipedia:Naming conventions? Google is quite clear on the commonness question. Piet 13:54, 13 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Uhm the article is at Flanders (county) and the talk page at Flanders (countship). I'm moving the talk back. Please discuss further moves before executing. Piet 17:59, 13 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Flemish and Dutch[edit]

This started from a (short) discussion about using the word "Flemish" for the Keldermans family of architects, who is actually from Brabant. Fnorp, you're right that Brabant makes a lot more sense for the Keldermans family, I've changed it (you were allowed to do it yourself of course). I notice on your user page that you're trying to solve Holland/Netherlands issues, Flemish has very similar issues. The name originally refers to the County, that is usually what is linked to. But

  1. After the personal union of the Seventeen Provinces and the Pragmatic Sanction of 1549, the whole region developed more and more into a single entity. From then on, and especially after the independence of the northern provinces, "Flemish" is often used for a much wider area than the County of Flanders, sometimes for the whole of the Southern Netherlands.
  2. There are AFAIK no commonly used English adjectives for something from Brabant or Hainaut – possibly due to the first point. Moreover, people from Antwerp of Mechelen are not sensitive about the use of "Flemish" as the cities are a now part of the modern Flemish Region.
  3. Alternatively we could refer to the larger region, but the word "Netherlandish" for the whole of the Low Countries is also not common. Instead the word "Dutch" would be used, but it seems very confusing to me to call Van Eyck a Dutch painter, since "Dutch" is normally used for the modern country of the Netherlands. And although I would be willing to accept it if it is common in English, I am very sure many Flemish people would not accept that historical Flemish people would be referred to as "Dutch". They're a bit sensitive about it :-) — much like many Dutch people are sensitive about the use of "Holland". Moreover, the center of gravity before 1600 was clearly in the region that is now not a part of the Netherlands, making the use of the word "Dutch" even more confusing.

This thing is bugging me a bit as I've been doing a lot of editing in 15th-16th century topics concerning the low countries, and I'm still not sure how to deal with it. People who are from the county can be called Flemish, for people who are from the north it's simple too, but Antwerp and Brussels and so on? The one authorative book that I have read about this period (Kamen, Henry (2005). Spain, 1469–1714, A Society of Conflict) seems to use "Flanders" and "the Netherlands" interchangeably when referring to the Spanish possessions there. I would like to receive more comments from non-Flemish/Dutch people who have read about the period, I might post something on the History portal. Btw. some examples concerning the use "Flemish" and "Dutch":

  1. I forked List of Flemish painters from the List of Belgian painters as it seems ridiculous to call Van Eyck a Belgian.
  2. Renaissance in the Netherlands – I would have called it Renaissance in the Netherlands but NOT the modern country the Netherlands but it seemed a bit too long :-) Well not too much doubt here, although I started working on it as Renaissance in the Low Countries.
  3. Johann van Beethoven – not edited by myself. Piet 10:22, 13 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
In the case of Keldermans, I think I solved it by linking Flemish to Flanders (current meaning) while still mentioning the duchy of Brabant. Fnorp 14:31, 13 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]


RfC[edit]

Read the section above for introduction. This is not a vote, I would like to receive some comments on how to proceed. Please add comments in the appropriate section. Piet 17:10, 16 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Use of "Dutch" for people from Southern Netherlands[edit]

This is not generally done at the moment, but when I see it I hesitate to correct because I am not sure if it is wrong.

I am against this because

  • It is confusing. The area is not a part of the present day Netherlands.
  • In earlier times the Netherlands were a union only for a few decades from the Pragmatic Sanction till the independence of the Northern Netherlands.
  • I don't think the word "Dutch" was used in this meaning by contemporary writers.
  • Flemish people are sensitive about it. (To find out more, try calling an Irishman British :-) )

Piet 17:10, 16 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This does seem unnecessary. Septentrionalis 21:52, 17 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Use of "Flemish" for people from the larger Southern Netherlands[edit]

Rather than "from Brabant", "from Hainaut" and so on. This seems a general practice, cf. the Franco-Flemish School which was more from Hainaut then from Flanders. Piet 17:10, 16 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

How about (where possible) Spanish/Austrian Netherlands or "Low Country painters"? Septentrionalis 21:52, 17 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Low Countries is a good alternative. But again there is no adjective, which is sometimes annoying. Most of all though, I would like to know what is common in current English language literature. Piet 07:47, 18 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Categories - stub categories[edit]

These are usually created along nationality lines. So there would be a Netherlands-painter-stub and a Belgian-painter-stub. I would create a Flemish-painter-stub, Flemish architects category,... as well, even though it has never been a nationality in the modern sense of the world. Of course this would be only for people before 1830, I've noticed that people sometimes put Belgian painters in the category Flemish painters; I would like to keep these two completely separated. Piet 17:10, 16 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]